Comments on: And the Wall Came A’Tumbling Down http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/and-the-wall-came-atumbling-down/ An online community sharing our lives and faith within a place of grace Mon, 30 Aug 2010 02:47:34 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: anita http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/and-the-wall-came-atumbling-down/comment-page-1/#comment-3100 anita Mon, 27 Oct 2008 17:23:22 +0000 http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/?p=732#comment-3100 Susie--> I related very closely with parts of your story since in my own pastoral ministry I left a church and a denomination when I was no longer able to be loyal to a system that I didn't believe was being true to the gospel message and the concern had nothing to do around the gay issue. I also understand your sense of frustration and grief over not finding a community that would welcome you and at the same share your theological sense and liturgical/worship style. That was a huge loss for me as well and for so many others. All I can share is that in my experience after a long dry season, I came to a place where I found I was able to once again connect in worship even though the songs and style were different and in terms of theology, I found a progressive congregation where Christ is central at the table and yet the theology is open in ways that allow people from the wide expanse of Christian form and thought to engage meaningful. For D and I, the key was the table. I so admire you for moving forward and providing a community for ragamuffins (ala Brennan Manning) and for those, straight or gay, who have left the church from disillusionment and spiritual wounding. While you express a loss of being in community, it sounds as though one is shaping up around you in your own living room and who knows how far God make take what has already begun. PJ--> How wonderful to hear the strength in your words and the insights you're gaining along the way. I really loved reading all that you wrote. Thank you. Lori--> I'm so glad you found the website and that it's been an encouragement to you. If you're looking for more online support and friendships, please check out our community forum at www.sisterfriends-together.org/forum. DL---> Thanks for the link! Susie–> I related very closely with parts of your story since in my own pastoral ministry I left a church and a denomination when I was no longer able to be loyal to a system that I didn’t believe was being true to the gospel message and the concern had nothing to do around the gay issue. I also understand your sense of frustration and grief over not finding a community that would welcome you and at the same share your theological sense and liturgical/worship style. That was a huge loss for me as well and for so many others. All I can share is that in my experience after a long dry season, I came to a place where I found I was able to once again connect in worship even though the songs and style were different and in terms of theology, I found a progressive congregation where Christ is central at the table and yet the theology is open in ways that allow people from the wide expanse of Christian form and thought to engage meaningful. For D and I, the key was the table. I so admire you for moving forward and providing a community for ragamuffins (ala Brennan Manning) and for those, straight or gay, who have left the church from disillusionment and spiritual wounding. While you express a loss of being in community, it sounds as though one is shaping up around you in your own living room and who knows how far God make take what has already begun.

PJ–> How wonderful to hear the strength in your words and the insights you’re gaining along the way. I really loved reading all that you wrote. Thank you.

Lori–> I’m so glad you found the website and that it’s been an encouragement to you. If you’re looking for more online support and friendships, please check out our community forum at http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/forum.

DL—> Thanks for the link!

]]> By: DragonLady~ http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/and-the-wall-came-atumbling-down/comment-page-1/#comment-3097 DragonLady~ Mon, 27 Oct 2008 15:01:21 +0000 http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/?p=732#comment-3097 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W14DHWFxOmg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W14DHWFxOmg

]]> By: Lori http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/and-the-wall-came-atumbling-down/comment-page-1/#comment-3091 Lori Mon, 27 Oct 2008 01:07:17 +0000 http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/?p=732#comment-3091 I am pretty new to this web site and this is my first reply. I have spent the last several weeks ready and enjoying all of the writings. I too was raised in a very conservative church, and denied my 'gayness' since the age of 18. I am now 47. I began my journey of living as a gay christian 2 1/2 years ago. Your words and faith are an inspiration. Thank you for sharing your life. Lori I am pretty new to this web site and this is my first reply. I have spent the last several weeks ready and enjoying all of the writings.
I too was raised in a very conservative church, and denied my ‘gayness’ since the age of 18. I am now 47. I began my journey of living as a gay christian 2 1/2 years ago. Your words and faith are an inspiration. Thank you for sharing your life.
Lori

]]> By: PJ http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/and-the-wall-came-atumbling-down/comment-page-1/#comment-3088 PJ Sun, 26 Oct 2008 17:45:44 +0000 http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/?p=732#comment-3088 How helpful this site has been to me. Thank you. As I "keep working through it", Anita, I have now read all the posts and comments on the Bible and Homosexuality link. Being somewhat of a Biblical word nut, I appeciate your comments on proper exegesis and Paul's use of some terms but not of others, and of the tremendous influence of culture on the Biblical writers. In response to your 3 questions about when my awareness of desire for women occurred, I have to say that I am not an idolator (at least not in a primary sense .. specifically, "things" rise to primary that are not God, but then it's only human to do that .. no problem with shaming myself there). So, I have not been "given over to earthly lusts" as a penalty for idolatry. In fact, all through my life, as I have moved into and out of an awareness of my sexuality, I have continually experienced great peace in my pursuit of God and in my pursuit of godly character. All summer, as this current "episode" of lesbian awareness has grown and become firm, I have still enjoyed Sunday worship in the same ways that I have always enjoyed singing before God. And, I have continued to be comforted by the Scriptures. And, my character of authenticity, compassion, generosity, kindness, etc. has not abandoned me. The Holy Spirit has still changed me and continues to empower me, even as I have had several very difficult "coming out" conversations. And, I am not afraid of God .. still concerned about the dogma regarding "sin", but not afraid of God .. does that make sense? About that sin dogma, as you post in the original post, what is my identity before God? Definitely, I am identifying as a lesbian. I am actively rearranging my life to make that a reality, no matter what the consequences to me in regard to the religious "right" (as in direction - to the right and conservative, rather than right vs wrong). There will be much to work through as I have raised my kids to also identify with that direction, but I am hopeful that will be worked through over time. My husband is very upset with me, but I am also hopeful that one day our friendship will return, although much changed. As for the church people, I will not fret for long over those who cannot or will not work through it with me. It's not worth it .. and it's not my job. More to the point, what needs to be "worked through" with God, and Jesus? I suppose it is that internalized homophobia, and the long term teaching that Jesus is homophobic. In your metaphor of the wall, this brick seems to be hanging in there with tenacity. I don't yet trust him but probably will eventually work through that. Your comments elsewhere that God's silence to you, and to me this summer, on this issue rang true to me. Maybe it's just not a dialogue that is important to God. As if, when I torment myself with worries of rejection by God, God's silence to me is God's acceptance of me. And the peace that I feel as I have come out to myself and have entered a lesbian relationship is actually God's assurance that it's okay .. that I'm okay .. that God created me, has always known this about me, and has always accepted the real me. Peace has always been the voice of God to me, and why not allow that to be true in this as well? Even when I was unfaithful to this truth; he has remained faithful to me, patiently waiting for me to be brave enough to accept it all. I will sit with these thoughts for awhile. Not quite frozen before the hand of Jesus, but not ready to grasp it either. Trusting in a little more patience at least. How helpful this site has been to me. Thank you.

As I “keep working through it”, Anita, I have now read all the posts and comments on the Bible and Homosexuality link. Being somewhat of a Biblical word nut, I appeciate your comments on proper exegesis and Paul’s use of some terms but not of others, and of the tremendous influence of culture on the Biblical writers.

In response to your 3 questions about when my awareness of desire for women occurred, I have to say that I am not an idolator (at least not in a primary sense .. specifically, “things” rise to primary that are not God, but then it’s only human to do that .. no problem with shaming myself there). So, I have not been “given over to earthly lusts” as a penalty for idolatry. In fact, all through my life, as I have moved into and out of an awareness of my sexuality, I have continually experienced great peace in my pursuit of God and in my pursuit of godly character. All summer, as this current “episode” of lesbian awareness has grown and become firm, I have still enjoyed Sunday worship in the same ways that I have always enjoyed singing before God. And, I have continued to be comforted by the Scriptures. And, my character of authenticity, compassion, generosity, kindness, etc. has not abandoned me. The Holy Spirit has still changed me and continues to empower me, even as I have had several very difficult “coming out” conversations. And, I am not afraid of God .. still concerned about the dogma regarding “sin”, but not afraid of God .. does that make sense?

About that sin dogma, as you post in the original post, what is my identity before God? Definitely, I am identifying as a lesbian. I am actively rearranging my life to make that a reality, no matter what the consequences to me in regard to the religious “right” (as in direction – to the right and conservative, rather than right vs wrong). There will be much to work through as I have raised my kids to also identify with that direction, but I am hopeful that will be worked through over time. My husband is very upset with me, but I am also hopeful that one day our friendship will return, although much changed. As for the church people, I will not fret for long over those who cannot or will not work through it with me. It’s not worth it .. and it’s not my job.

More to the point, what needs to be “worked through” with God, and Jesus? I suppose it is that internalized homophobia, and the long term teaching that Jesus is homophobic. In your metaphor of the wall, this brick seems to be hanging in there with tenacity. I don’t yet trust him but probably will eventually work through that. Your comments elsewhere that God’s silence to you, and to me this summer, on this issue rang true to me. Maybe it’s just not a dialogue that is important to God. As if, when I torment myself with worries of rejection by God, God’s silence to me is God’s acceptance of me. And the peace that I feel as I have come out to myself and have entered a lesbian relationship is actually God’s assurance that it’s okay .. that I’m okay .. that God created me, has always known this about me, and has always accepted the real me. Peace has always been the voice of God to me, and why not allow that to be true in this as well? Even when I was unfaithful to this truth; he has remained faithful to me, patiently waiting for me to be brave enough to accept it all.

I will sit with these thoughts for awhile. Not quite frozen before the hand of Jesus, but not ready to grasp it either. Trusting in a little more patience at least.

]]> By: Susie http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/and-the-wall-came-atumbling-down/comment-page-1/#comment-3087 Susie Sun, 26 Oct 2008 17:21:52 +0000 http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/?p=732#comment-3087 Another well-written entry, Anita, that obviously resonates with so many people. Not only was I also raised in a conversative, evangelical Christian family and tradition, but I grew up to become the first woman pastor in the Pacific Northwest area in my denomination. I absolutely loved being a pastor -- mostly I loved connecting people with God's grace. I remember early on in my pastoral journey, someone asked me, "What's it like being a pastor?" My answer? "It would be the greatest job in the word if it wasn't for Christians." I spent so much of my time trying to untangle the message of the "church" from the message of the Christ. And the irony? All along I was in a marriage with a very nice man with whom I shared a very nice roommate-type relationship, so I was living in the tangle msyelf. But there finally came a day when I could no longer face myself in the mirror -- the cognitive disconnect between what my church believed and what I believed became too great. I used to teach pastor's classes to people new to our church. Sometimes they would ask questions, and I would find myself answering, "Do you want to know what this church believes or what I believe?" Hard to live within that dissonance, and, frankly, unethical to represent an institution I was spiritually and emotionally leaving, even if only incrementally. So I left my church, my marriage, my career, but not my faith. Probably the hardest part for me today is loss of community. I am at heart a Wesleyan by theology -- and I know WAY too much, having been through so much education and personal exploration. Those denominations that would readily accept me as a lesbian do not feed me spiritually in a way that waters me deeply. In many ways, I consider myself a straight person who happens to be lesbian, if that makes any sense. If I found myself surrounded by all lesbian/gay people, I would not be comfortable -- most of my closest friends who have journeyed with me through all of these changes are straight. So I still hunger for a church body where I can be fully myself and also find the spiritual meat with which my soul resonates. Sidebar: And that goes for music, too -- hard to find some place where both hymns (my heritage) and worship songs are sung -- why, oh why, does it have to be either/or? So I welcome a group of misfits into my home every week -- none of whom, by the way, happens to be gay -- to explore the goodness of God together through scripture. All of these wonderful people have been burned by churches and long to believe that grace really exists. I do my best to get out of God's way and give them a safe place to explore and question and find ways to live in the mystery. And probably the hardest thing is being alone. Without community, how does one find another person with whom to share life who also loves God and is willing to walk alongside me in the mystery? Wow! A lot of rambling here in a lot of areas, but let me just say, Anita, that your writing is beautiful and your words speak not only your own truth that the truth of others. Thank you for that. Another well-written entry, Anita, that obviously resonates with so many people. Not only was I also raised in a conversative, evangelical Christian family and tradition, but I grew up to become the first woman pastor in the Pacific Northwest area in my denomination. I absolutely loved being a pastor — mostly I loved connecting people with God’s grace. I remember early on in my pastoral journey, someone asked me, “What’s it like being a pastor?” My answer? “It would be the greatest job in the word if it wasn’t for Christians.” I spent so much of my time trying to untangle the message of the “church” from the message of the Christ. And the irony? All along I was in a marriage with a very nice man with whom I shared a very nice roommate-type relationship, so I was living in the tangle msyelf. But there finally came a day when I could no longer face myself in the mirror — the cognitive disconnect between what my church believed and what I believed became too great. I used to teach pastor’s classes to people new to our church. Sometimes they would ask questions, and I would find myself answering, “Do you want to know what this church believes or what I believe?” Hard to live within that dissonance, and, frankly, unethical to represent an institution I was spiritually and emotionally leaving, even if only incrementally. So I left my church, my marriage, my career, but not my faith.

Probably the hardest part for me today is loss of community. I am at heart a Wesleyan by theology — and I know WAY too much, having been through so much education and personal exploration. Those denominations that would readily accept me as a lesbian do not feed me spiritually in a way that waters me deeply. In many ways, I consider myself a straight person who happens to be lesbian, if that makes any sense. If I found myself surrounded by all lesbian/gay people, I would not be comfortable — most of my closest friends who have journeyed with me through all of these changes are straight. So I still hunger for a church body where I can be fully myself and also find the spiritual meat with which my soul resonates. Sidebar: And that goes for music, too — hard to find some place where both hymns (my heritage) and worship songs are sung — why, oh why, does it have to be either/or?

So I welcome a group of misfits into my home every week — none of whom, by the way, happens to be gay — to explore the goodness of God together through scripture. All of these wonderful people have been burned by churches and long to believe that grace really exists. I do my best to get out of God’s way and give them a safe place to explore and question and find ways to live in the mystery.

And probably the hardest thing is being alone. Without community, how does one find another person with whom to share life who also loves God and is willing to walk alongside me in the mystery?

Wow! A lot of rambling here in a lot of areas, but let me just say, Anita, that your writing is beautiful and your words speak not only your own truth that the truth of others. Thank you for that.

]]> By: anita http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/and-the-wall-came-atumbling-down/comment-page-1/#comment-3085 anita Sun, 26 Oct 2008 15:44:37 +0000 http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/?p=732#comment-3085 George-->I <em>absolutely</em> agree with you. My intention in using that particular phrase (and then italizing it) was to emphasize the mindset of the Christian tradition I had come from that encouraged the idea WE did an action that made Jesus our Savior/Lord, but the truth is that grace is free, given to all, withheld from none. George–>I absolutely agree with you. My intention in using that particular phrase (and then italizing it) was to emphasize the mindset of the Christian tradition I had come from that encouraged the idea WE did an action that made Jesus our Savior/Lord, but the truth is that grace is free, given to all, withheld from none.

]]> By: geo http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/and-the-wall-came-atumbling-down/comment-page-1/#comment-3082 geo Sun, 26 Oct 2008 11:07:00 +0000 http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/?p=732#comment-3082 You wrote: I raised my five year old hand to accept Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior The interesting thing about that statement is that NO WHERE in the bible is that stated. It does say though that God the Father made Jesus BOTH Lord and Savior! An individual cannot make Jesus Lord and Savior! If we could then that would make us God! Jesus IS LORD of ALL to ALL and through ALL. Nothing mankind or religion can do to "unLord" Him. He IS lord of ALL. Now that is GOOD NEWS Peace Geo You wrote:
I raised my five year old hand to accept Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior

The interesting thing about that statement is that NO WHERE in the bible is that stated. It does say though that God the Father made Jesus BOTH Lord and Savior! An individual cannot make Jesus Lord and Savior! If we could then that would make us God! Jesus IS LORD of ALL to ALL and through ALL. Nothing mankind or religion can do to “unLord” Him.
He IS lord of ALL.

Now that is GOOD NEWS

Peace
Geo

]]> By: anita http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/and-the-wall-came-atumbling-down/comment-page-1/#comment-3079 anita Sun, 26 Oct 2008 05:20:30 +0000 http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/?p=732#comment-3079 GW --> And you are most welcome. In return thank you for your story because I know so many will relate to what you shared. There's no question there's a lot of grief and letting go involved in this part of the journey but the hope is out there, that the day will come when you won't be "a mess", your head and heart will be steady and your feet will be firmly planted again...not in any particular theology or set of Christian beliefs, but planted in the firmest foundation of all; that being the steadfast love of God and grace of Christ Jesus. I'm sorry for all the relationships that might come to an end in your life but equally I'll rejoice with you in new friendships and communities of faith that will welcome you in the fullness of all that you are meant to be and know that you are. Thank you again for joining us here. PJ--> I was reminded in reading your recent comment that tomorrow is Reformation Sunday, a time to remember Martin Luther when he dared to suggest that God's love trumped everything. That boy and his compadre reformers rocked the church and were with you considered to be among <em>them</em>. Heretics in the name of grace isn't such a bad thing to be, now is it? As to your question, it's a good one and one that you and each of us must answer for ourselves. Here's what I know. Whenever I had a thought or a glimpse of scripture that went against tradition teaching, the first thing I did was doubt my intention and distrust myself. Looking back, I realized that in distrusting myself to hear God's spirit speaking to me, I was distrusting God's ability to get through to me. That's how powerful those traditional messages are and how firmly they're set within us, that even when they don't reflect honestly on our lives, we question our lives before we question them. PJ, you will <strong>never</strong> be put by God into a position where you would have to refuse him. I will never believe that God would reject one human for loving another human. God who created you, shaped you and breathed life into you will never reject you. If God would do that then the grace of God is less than Jesus lead us to believe. Keep working it through PJ. Eliz--> Amen y amen. Deb--> Yeh PJ, what Deb said! GW –> And you are most welcome. In return thank you for your story because I know so many will relate to what you shared. There’s no question there’s a lot of grief and letting go involved in this part of the journey but the hope is out there, that the day will come when you won’t be “a mess”, your head and heart will be steady and your feet will be firmly planted again…not in any particular theology or set of Christian beliefs, but planted in the firmest foundation of all; that being the steadfast love of God and grace of Christ Jesus. I’m sorry for all the relationships that might come to an end in your life but equally I’ll rejoice with you in new friendships and communities of faith that will welcome you in the fullness of all that you are meant to be and know that you are. Thank you again for joining us here.

PJ–> I was reminded in reading your recent comment that tomorrow is Reformation Sunday, a time to remember Martin Luther when he dared to suggest that God’s love trumped everything. That boy and his compadre reformers rocked the church and were with you considered to be among them. Heretics in the name of grace isn’t such a bad thing to be, now is it? As to your question, it’s a good one and one that you and each of us must answer for ourselves. Here’s what I know. Whenever I had a thought or a glimpse of scripture that went against tradition teaching, the first thing I did was doubt my intention and distrust myself. Looking back, I realized that in distrusting myself to hear God’s spirit speaking to me, I was distrusting God’s ability to get through to me. That’s how powerful those traditional messages are and how firmly they’re set within us, that even when they don’t reflect honestly on our lives, we question our lives before we question them. PJ, you will never be put by God into a position where you would have to refuse him. I will never believe that God would reject one human for loving another human. God who created you, shaped you and breathed life into you will never reject you. If God would do that then the grace of God is less than Jesus lead us to believe. Keep working it through PJ.

Eliz–> Amen y amen.

Deb–> Yeh PJ, what Deb said!

]]> By: deb http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/and-the-wall-came-atumbling-down/comment-page-1/#comment-3075 deb Sun, 26 Oct 2008 00:33:10 +0000 http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/?p=732#comment-3075 I keep coming back to this blog. I read your post this morning, PJ, and have been thinking of it all day. I also have gone through a process as you have mentioned here: "go and sin no more" type of thinking. For the very longest time that is what kept me in bondage; in a way. I think I misunderstood what Jesus was saying. I always felt like who I am is a sinful, awful person who had to keep living like a heterosexual to be right in God's eyes. I was always asking God to forgive me for being myself. Although I wasn't doing anything anyone could call gay, I knew in my heart I was not how everyone else was. I guess I lived my whole life like that.... yea... I did. I've come to realize that being lesbian has very little to do with the sex act and everything to do with the way I view the world. And, the way others view me. (whole different subject) I have come to the place where I realized that who I am, in the core of my person, has to be who God expects me to be. It didn't seem possible to me that God would have created me for destruction. How could that be? As far as the sin issue goes, I don't know. I'm sure if I went out to the gay bar and found someone to bring home, I would feel I had sinned. But I think that if God, in deed, has always seen me as a gay women, then there must be a place in relationship that is pleasing in His eyes, because I know he loves me and finds me pleasing. That is how I see it so far. but I am constantly growing and realizing more. But, I pray to God I never allow myself to live in shame again for being who I am. I am who I am and that is all I know how to be. Peace-out. I keep coming back to this blog.
I read your post this morning, PJ, and have been thinking of it all day. I also have gone through a process as you have mentioned here: “go and sin no more” type of thinking. For the very longest time that is what kept me in bondage; in a way. I think I misunderstood what Jesus was saying. I always felt like who I am is a sinful, awful person who had to keep living like a heterosexual to be right in God’s eyes. I was always asking God to forgive me for being myself. Although I wasn’t doing anything anyone could call gay, I knew in my heart I was not how everyone else was. I guess I lived my whole life like that…. yea… I did. I’ve come to realize that being lesbian has very little to do with the sex act and everything to do with the way I view the world. And, the way others view me. (whole different subject)

I have come to the place where I realized that who I am, in the core of my person, has to be who God expects me to be. It didn’t seem possible to me that God would have created me for destruction. How could that be?
As far as the sin issue goes, I don’t know. I’m sure if I went out to the gay bar and found someone to bring home, I would feel I had sinned. But I think that if God, in deed, has always seen me as a gay women, then there must be a place in relationship that is pleasing in His eyes, because I know he loves me and finds me pleasing.
That is how I see it so far. but I am constantly growing and realizing more. But, I pray to God I never allow myself to live in shame again for being who I am.
I am who I am and that is all I know how to be.
Peace-out.

]]> By: Eliz Anderson http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/and-the-wall-came-atumbling-down/comment-page-1/#comment-3060 Eliz Anderson Sat, 25 Oct 2008 05:08:43 +0000 http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/?p=732#comment-3060 Only a small crack...but small cracks make caves collapse - Alexander Solzhenitsyn May God shake anything that can be shaken in me that I only see His truth living in me. Faith for me has been learning to trust the One Who created the answers. No longer telling God what the answers are. To each of you ladies thank you for sharing your stories, struggles and hopes. All of you amaze me in your courage and faith. If you have a time when all the walls seem to be caving in and you can't 'see' through the dust come back here, and read your words again. You will be encouraged just as your words are encouraging others. Only a small crack…but small cracks make caves collapse – Alexander Solzhenitsyn

May God shake anything that can be shaken in me that I only see His truth living in me. Faith for me has been learning to trust the One Who created the answers.
No longer telling God what the answers are.
To each of you ladies thank you for sharing your stories, struggles and hopes. All of you amaze me in your courage and faith. If you have a time when all the walls seem to be caving in and you can’t ‘see’ through the dust come back here, and read your words again. You will be encouraged just as your words are encouraging others.

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