P-I-N-G P-O-N-G
March 29, 2010
So you know how it goes. Someone on the opposite side of an issue, oh let’s say about being gay and Christian for an example, asks you a question but you know they aren’t asking because they really want to hear what you have to say. Instead they ignore the answer you labored thoughtfully over so they can just have the excuse to volley another round at you of “Love you, hate your sin,” or “Oh, you really need to read Romans 2!” or “You’re so deceived but thanks for playing!”
Or is it just me?
Anyway, I thought since I was willing to tackle some questions from you, you might consider taking on a few questions from me every now and again. Questions I ask because I really want to hear your thoughts on them, especially if you have a different take on God’s judgment, hell, eternal punishment and other similar lighthearted fare. Here are two questions I grappled with for a long time:
How will God ever be satisfied knowing that there are some of His creation suffering in hell and eternally separated from His presence?
How can those in heaven ever be free of sorrow knowing that those they love (children, spouse, parents, friends) are in eternal torment?
I could never come up with any answer that was even remotely tolerable to me, but if you’ve found an answer around the conflict between the absence of all sadness in heaven and the existence of eternal damnation, I really want to hear how you’ve worked it out for yourself.
Come on. You know you wanna.
Posted in Engaging Conversation
March 29th, 2010 at 2:15 pm
Hmmm…that’s a goodie, sis
Regarding your first question, my initial thoughts are that sin is sin and the wages of sin is death. Full stop. That’s why Jesus had to die for our sins.
But that’s exactly WHY Jesus died for our sins! Because the wages of sin is death, someone had to die. Namely Sin. But Christ took that sin upon Himself, and gave us LIFE there on the Cross!
Your second question speaks for itself. I had never considered that before. Yes indeed, there would be nothing heavenly about knowing your loved ones were clenching their teeth somewhere, and worse still, separated from God.
Thanks for making me think. Again.
March 29th, 2010 at 2:22 pm
For me the answer to those questions is that God will have mercy as He/She will have mercy. And I believe that has no human bounds. We cannot conceive of what God has in mind. Which is really my answer when someone comes up with the first question too–because I interpret the Bible by looking at it with what my human eye sees as the eyes of Jesus, not the culture of the time. Including the Pauline Christians in that too. Because they don’t see it my way I don’t hold it against them.
Because I am not out sometimes people get a surprising answer when they ask me about these things. I’m sorry anyone would try to trap you or play games with the Bible like that. It’s been happening for centuries…thank goodness some Christians don’t play that.
March 29th, 2010 at 2:58 pm
Gosh, Anita. Those are too easy for an apostate like me. Because…
First – there ain’t no hell. Ain’t biblical, it’s just the result of sloppy reading of scriptures wedded to a mishmash of Grecco-Roman theology/philosophy and Northern European mythology.
Second – we don’t know what we mean by “Heaven”. The closest thing I can remember Jesus getting to this is his promise to the thief on the cross and he doesn’t go into great detail. But it surely is not what he means by the Kingdom of God.
My question would be: how could Jesus live with himself (if he was the ‘unblemished sacrificial lamb of God”) knowing that so many still didn’t get it – still went to Hell by not saying the “Sinner’s Prayer” or calling him “Lord”? (wait! don’t the Goats call the king “Lord”?)
Faith comes so much easier and is so much more vibrant when we cast off these childish beliefs (no offense to those who are are into the whole hell and devil thing.)
March 29th, 2010 at 3:15 pm
Is it okay for a non-Christian to offer some of her thoughts….?
March 29th, 2010 at 3:37 pm
Julia –> Always! And a recipe too if you have one
March 29th, 2010 at 3:51 pm
Christian –> You know of course that the conclusions we arrive at are in fact the same, however I don’t cast aside so easily the teachings that informed my early faith and that continues to inform the faith of others. Heaven and Hell were among so many of the foundations doctrines that unpinned Christianity as I knew it and so knowing where I’ve come from in that and how deeply and sincerely I believed those at my core, I would be hesitant to call them “childish beliefs” for myself or for anyone who continues to stay in that place. I’m just saying
And while I’m reserving, as best that I can, my thoughts on the place of Jesus’ work in all this I’m prone to wonder the same thing; ff as Revelation 5:6 says, that the Lamb of God will forever appear as One who was slain, then how could Christ ever be content in knowing that his sacrifice had only spared a small remnant from the penalty of sin, and that his title as Savior of the World was never fully actualized?
March 29th, 2010 at 4:07 pm
Quick one: angela‘s thoughts on this are very similar to mine, so for now, I’ll just say “amen” to her post.
What I really want to say (and forgot in my comments on your 1st “hell” post): Thanks so much for bringing up the tough questions and making me think! Anita, your writing has challenged me in the past – to listen, to rethink my positions on a number of important things – and I deeply appreciate the way that you don’t settle for the easy or convenient or commonplace answers (if answers they are).
I like this partly because it keeps my grey cells working, and partly because of the diversity of comments/opinions (and, of course, of the people who make them), but most of all because I think it’s important to question and search in order to keep growing, not to mention in order to be able to extend the love of Christ to those who are “not like us,” in the myriad ways that (“not like us”) tends to come up on a regular basis.
March 29th, 2010 at 5:02 pm
Great questions, Anita! Making us think is something you do well! Ok, so 1. I wish I had time to look it up right now, but in Revelation we are told “that God, not wanting ANY to perish…”, then again Paul says, “every knee shall bow”…so, along with all the love I know God has for all people regardless of creed, (After all we/everyone is created by the same God, are all God’s children, no matter what they think) that my impression is all people are given the opportunity to accept the love(Christ’s sacrifice) of God between this world and the next. Somewhere between dying and living again we go through judgement. I believe that God, not wanting that any should perish gives us all one last question of faith. How else could the person who never heard about God in this lifetime be saved? I cannot accept a Pure Loving God that would reject the aborgine soul…can’t believe that. God says the Word is written on our hearts. That is, the knowledge there is a god and we need to look for that god. I think that if one never found God here, God would reveal God’s self to that soul either here or there, but never is not an option. Should one, knowingly reject God in the face of God, then I can understand the seperation, and God’s mourning even the loss of that soul. Just as the d’evil rejected God knowing full well who God is. Now to the second, 2. When we get there we shall “see clearly”. Our understanding of the seperation(hell) will be complete. I really do think most people will accept God as real when confronted with God on the other side. And truly there are those who openly reject God here, but usually because they are hurting and are mad at God. I know God is used to people being mad at God. And that God fully understands. After all God did become human and live here too. “Christ grew in knowledge and wisdom” and was “tempted in every way”. So, God has a great deal of understanding how it is to be human. And so, not wanting any to perish and presenting everyone with the question of acceptence of Christ(sacrifice) and everyone who does go to the Kingdom will “see clearly”, they will understand why their ‘loved ones’ go to the seperation(hell) and will not be sad, but understand. They/we will ‘have peace’ about it all.
ok, now that I’ve said that. I believe sin is a moot point. There should be no name for sins, except that Paul felt it needed to be done(some kind of list) because so many folks were asking if this or that is ok to do or eat or say or go to or attend or think…you get my point. Christ was asked about divorce, whether it was ok. Even today, because of who I am as a homosexual Christian(don’t like the word lesbian, I’m not from Lesbos) I have to explain that the word sin means we ‘miss the mark’. That is: we are ALL sinners. No one is perfect, no one can boast. Only Christ could be the perfect sacrifice in this crazy plan God made for us people(as oppossed to angels) to be really, really like God(beings with choice((will)))! Paul said he is the chief of sinners because of all the Christians he killed. He had a thorn in the flesh he didn’t like to talk about and so we debate to this day whether it was something he thought of as a ‘sin’ in his life or some affliction in his eye. All we know is it would not go away, he couldn’t get rid of it. Yet we know he felt, “therefore there is now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ”!!!!! First Paul makes the point we all need Jesus, then he says, we can ALL be saved!!! Hallelujah! God loves me, God loves you, God loves everybody in the zoo! (something my grandma used to say!) At any rate, some of the people we think are going to the seperation, will probably be in the Kingdom! Praise God! In fact even us ‘sinners’ will be surprised about who made it there! Hallelujah!
Hope that helps. Helps me to think this way. And most times, people I talk to about it feel better somehow….Peace!
March 29th, 2010 at 8:25 pm
Thanks once again Anita for stretching our minds, by making us think. You have such a wonderful way of doing that and I appreciate you for your abilities there.
It’s been a long last couple of months, but I’m trying to get back on here and doing what I do most with this computer.
I do agree with you that, if God sent Christ in the form of man to walk among us and die for our sins, then certainly He would not still require eternal damnation.
Thanks and I look forward to your next blog.
Thanks and blessings to you all@@
March 29th, 2010 at 10:24 pm
Thanks Anita.
Gonna have to read up a few posts to get up to speed so I can contribute to the discusion. Though right now due to time crunch and lateness of the hour I’m just gonna toss into the discussion for consideration something that came to me years ago whilst contemplating, Life, the Universe and Everything:
‘Those who believe in hell are confined by it.’
I’ve spent many a year that phrase and come to many understand many things about what it means, which I will try to relay soon as time allows.
Thanks for listening. (And I havent forgotten the recipe either. *winks*)
~juila
March 30th, 2010 at 1:17 am
one other thought: I’m going to take the “God speaks to Job” route here. So Job has all these serious, burning questions for God, and God… doesn’t answer them. He talks about other things instead, mainly focusing on his character and his works.
Maybe this is a very Lutheran “out” on my part, but I seriously have to wonder if any of us would actually “get” the answers to the questions being posed in this (and previous blog posts) if God were to start unleashing some revelation on us in the here and now.
I can’t help wondering the apparent contradiction between God’s overwhelming love and the grimmer views of hell/eternal punishment are just that – a superficial appearance of opposition.
At this point in my life, I’ve had to come to grips with the fact that any number of issues and ideas that are vitally important to me will never have complete answers in this lifetime – if, in fact, there will ever be *any* answers given to me at all.
Which is (imo, at least for now) where faith and trust in the goodness of God comes in, and not in an academic way, either. (Like: “where is my recently deceased sibling who rejected faith in Christ and his cross?” and so forth.)
For now, I’m of the persuasion that a merciful and loving God will not only deal kindly with that sibling, but that I can trust him (by his grace) enough to leave the whole topic alone. (Were I to start delving into it, I’d be causing myself needless anxiety and all-too-real heartbreak over something that’s beyond my comprehension anyway.)
Not sure if that answers anyone’s questions (my own included!), but it’s where I am for now.
March 30th, 2010 at 3:53 am
Those are excellent questions, and two that I have struggled with for a long time. I was raised in an Assembly of God faith and became saved as a child. When I asked my mom how I was going to be her sister AND her daughter when we get to heaven, she told me that she wouldn’t know me in heaven. That everything from earth will be forgotten, including mother-daughter relationships. Probably unintentionally, this had a profound, negative effect on me. Now my mother has passed away, and I maintain a cynical, roll-my-eyes reaction when people say that my parents are looking down from heaven. Even my grandmother doesn’t know where my mom’s opinion comes from (Grandma is our go-to lady for everything-Bible). But still, it’s there.
So…basically, when you get the answer to those questions, let me know. Because as it stands from a Christian teetering on the edge of losing her faith, the answer to both questions is that they don’t care.
Pessimistically,
RD
March 30th, 2010 at 4:41 am
Sorry Anita. Poor choice of words (although I think they arel accurate). A belief in heaven vs hell was important in your early spiritual formation as well as mine and perhaps millions of others. But we both (and perhaps millions of others?) grew out of this. Just as fear of punishment can be instrumental with a child’s development into maturity, where it is then no longer needed.
I think, though, that the idea of hell as a metaphor for the world we create for ourselves without God might work just as well. Speaking personally, my life before Jesus was certainly hellish, at least to me. Coming to understand that my own state of heart was at fault and not God’s “wrath” – that God waned to help me out of my hell, not punish me there- was the real saving experience.
March 30th, 2010 at 6:29 pm
This post is a few days old now and I’ve hesitated in adding to it because, well, I actually haven’t worked it out and don’t have an answer but I’m still grappling with it and trying to come to a place of rest about the whole thing. My answer is pretty raw and it is really personal to me. I don’t pretend this is your story or your journey, but these are real issues that I grapple with so I thought that was relevant to share here. If you’ve been on a journey of faith you might recognise some of these ‘mile markers’ from along the track you’ve walked. I don’t mean this to be offensive to anyone, it is just how I’m trying to work through it and arrange my thoughts/feelings/beliefs into something that can remain in my life – rather than be completely tossed out. I see it as my personal journey and things I am trying to reconcile and I don’t think there will be an “ed point”. So here goes:
I USED to have it all worked out. Knew the answer/s to it all from a very conservative Christian background. At that time, Hell was an actual place that existed as well as being a state of eternal damnation and hot fire for all those who had not turned to Christ. Heaven was a place to go to when you’d said the sinners prayer and given your heart to Christ (regardless, it seemed, of whatever you did after that in your life). I genuinely thought at that point that God would (like a parent) let people suffer the consequences of not choosing Him (a bit like “this is gonna hurt me more that it’s gonna hurt you“– but nevertheless). I also believed that God would be upset too that no missionaries had made it to some parts of the globe to actually give people the message and choice (coz that would be really unfair – to go to Hell without knowing there was something that could be done about it). I thought that heaven was a place, full of singing, holy robes, streets of gold, full of glorious praise and worship and a place where I would be transformed from a body that doesn’t function well, to one that walks and looks beautiful. Relationships with people I knew on earth wouldn’t be that important because the REAL me would be revealed without sin and I’d likely be a different person – a perfect one. So, because I’d been transformed and risen above an earthly body with a sinful bent to it, I would be sorrowful about others I’d know (pre-perfection) who went to hell, but was resigned to the fact they’d made their choice, had to live with the consequences, and I was only missing their “imperfect and sinful” person so really didn’t know them at all.
THEN I started to realise there was (what I feel are) holes in the stuff I was being taught (coz if you’re going to say that THIS verse is literal and THAT one is metaphoric or contextual to 100AD – well, you just can’t have it both ways). I started to wonder if Judas had prayed before killing himself and that would have meant (to me) that Judas or Hitler or whoever was actually in heaven. Which I suppose, if it hinges on the sinners prayer, or like the thief on the cross – is entirely possible. So I guess that answers the two questions you’ve posed.
RIGHT now though, I’ve been through the dark night of the soul. Realised there is no place for me as a gay woman in the church (where I live anyway). I’ve tried not to throw the baby out with the bathwater but at the moment I’m wondering what is real, what is true, what is just ‘programming’ and what I feel. I would dearly LOVE to be able to believe in a God that is loving and loves me regardless. BUT, I’m not there just yet. Instead I’m scared. Worried that being who I am means I’ve turned my back and am destined for hell. Of course, I want to change my mind now – about hell – so that my beliefs fit my lifestyle. I wonder if my search for a new truth (for me) means that I just create a story or a God that fits my NEED to want a God that is forgiving and loving, rather than who God might really be. In the end, NONE of us knows until we die. NONE of us knows until that point what happens, what heaven is or isn’t and who or what God is.
March 30th, 2010 at 7:03 pm
Christian–> I really do understand what you’re saying but for me, calling any Christian perspective an “immature faith” raises a red flag if for no other reason that it can be an offense to those who feel it’s being applied to what they believe. The only set of faith beliefs I would consider immature would be those that were arrived in a way that lacked thoughtful and weighty consideration. For me it’s not about the “what” someone believes as to “how” they believe. Have they invested themselves in study and reflection? Can they give an answer for what they believe (being able to articulate it to another?) Is their mind engaged with their faith as well as their heart? Is there a consistency to the parts and have they spent time with the tensions of their faith?
And oh, how I “amen” that the most painful hells are the ones we create and that are for so many people in the here and now and those are the hells from which we’ve been saved.
March 30th, 2010 at 7:18 pm
Babz–> Sometimes when I read or hear something really good that speaks to the heart of me I don’t know what to say beyond “YUM” so yum to what your words. You gave me MUCH to think about and meditate on, and along with yum, amen!
March 30th, 2010 at 7:23 pm
Julia –> THANK you for sharing what you did and especially for “Those who believe in hell are confined by it.” I’ve known so many who have been held prisoners to their ideas of hell and especially the fear of it. I’m going to continue to think on those words because as you said, I do think it can say many things.
March 30th, 2010 at 7:34 pm
e2c–> I really do get what you’re saying but my hesitation with that approach (trusting in faith and leaving the topic(s) alone) is that I did that in so many areas of faith for so long and while I might have avoided dealing with some uncomfortable feelings it also froze my faith and kept it from changing/growing/transforming. I absolutely believe in the mystery of our faith and that there is so much to our faith we can never explain (would it be faith if we could?!). At the same time, before I rest in the peace and comfort of accepting it in faith as a mystery beyond my human understanding, I feel like I’m called to work out my faith as best I can. Ask the questions. Feel the doubt. Consider with reason. Meditate. Pray. I also realize e2c that any answers I get to the questions are all subject to being a million miles from the Truth and all are subject to change. I don’t think, by the way, that I’m arguing with anything you wrote. It’s just that what you wrote triggered these thoughts for me.
March 30th, 2010 at 7:43 pm
RD–> What your mom told you is something I could never accept because it completely devalues this world God created, the capacity God has put within us to love others, and the relationships that have been given to us. To say we will not know each other is to say this life in the end will be meaningless. I don’t know how it will be but rather than imagining that I’ll enter “heaven” where my parents, grandparents, and others I’ve loved will be there with balloons and party hats to welcome me home I feel like in some way our spirits will join with God’s spirit and there will be some kind of reconnection, some sense of being at one, with those we have loved and will continue to love. But actually, I think your mom’s idea isn’t all that unusual because even while there’s nothing Biblical to support it, there are plenty of other Christians I’ve heard who’ve said the same thing. I think that for some it’s the only way they can reconcile the idea that in heaven there will be no sorrow while believing that there’s a hell where some of their loved ones might be suffering. And RD, as to losing your faith, if you do, you can find it again. When you’re ready. If you want it. Hopefully, Anita
March 30th, 2010 at 8:04 pm
anita – I totally get what you’re saying. But I guess that for me – at this particular point in time – I need to trust, and rest. I spend far too much time and energy trying to figure out everything under the sun (and moon) – including many things that completely resist being figured out.
for now, rest seems to be the better choice. Which of course, is not to say that I’ll never tackle these questions in greater depth; just that now might not be the best time to do it. But I love reading all the posts and comments regarding these subjects, as you know… Perhaps the trusting in quietness (for now) and the rest will merge, eventually, for me.
March 30th, 2010 at 8:06 pm
also… I think there’s stuff sitting on one of my mental back burners, cooking away happily, as I write this. It’s one of those things that you can’t hurry, no?
March 30th, 2010 at 8:31 pm
e2c–>I totally agree that there are times to rest in faith and times to bust it out. Been there, done that. Will do it again!
March 31st, 2010 at 6:13 pm
anita: believe you me, I *am* busting it out about some things right now, just not these particular things (at least insofar as they relate to the death of a family member, etc.).
The slow simmer on the back burner is continuing, though.