Romans 1: Read the Whole Chapter Kiddo
February 4, 2008
“I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that I planned many times to come to you (but have been prevented from doing so until now) in order that I might have a harvest among you, just as I have had among the other Gentiles. I am obligated both to Greeks and non-Greeks, both to the wise and the foolish. That is why I am so eager to preach the gospel also to you who are at Rome. I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: ‘The righteous will live by faith.’ The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator–who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?” Romans I
I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve received emails from strangers who upon finding this ministry online have included a cut and paste of Romans 1:26-27 in the body of the email, as if that’s all they need to say to prove their view that the Bible condemns homosexuality. I would suspect that those four verses have been quoted to nearly after GLBTQ Christian from once to a thousand times. There’s little question these two verses don’t sound particularly favorable concerning sexual relations between people of the same gender, and they aren’t favorable but for reasons that hinge on the world view at the time of Paul’s writing around human sexuality and gender roles which is another world, literally, from that of our own.
But even before looking at those verses we need to recognize that 1:26-27 don’t stand alone and when people quote them as though it’s the definitive word on a biblical condemnation of homosexuality then they’re engaging in the practice of proof-texting. Simply, proof-texting is when an individual scripture or selection of scriptures is used to support a position without regard for the context that held the scripture, often giving the words of the scripture different meaning than was the original intent of the writer. To use any scripture to support ones own ideology without consideration of the context in which it’s placed and the intent of the writer dishonors the scripture as a whole.
Intention and Context of Romans 1
Christianity had begun to grow in Rome and was comprised of both Gentile and Jewish believers. Though Paul had never been to the church in Rome, he mentions in the opening that while he has intended many times to come to them, he expresses hope that he might visit them soon. In the meantime, Paul sends this letter to the church in Rome that lays out Paul’s theology and the great themes of the Gospel. Most would consider the Book of Romans to be Paul’s most complete theological statement.
In the first three chapters Paul makes a strong case for the need of all people, both Jew and Gentile, to establish their faith in Jesus Christ. In Chapter 1 Paul speaks to the Jews of the sin of the Gentiles which they seem to have initially reported to him that resulted in this reply. In Chapter 2 Paul turns on the Jews and highlights their sin. In Chapter 3 Paul reaches the conclusion that “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” (vs. 23, 24). This would seem to be Paul’s ultimate intention; to assert the need of all people to experience salvation by the Gospel message and the availability that Gospel to all, Gentile or Jew, male or female, slave or free.
Paul was writing to a specific people in a specific time. There’s no indication anywhere in Paul’s own words that as he wrote it was the entire world and with all time in mind. Paul was clueless than thousands of years later Christians would be reading his words, much less that they would be held within a canon along side the Torah. Paul’s focus was on the church in Rome and grounding them in the Gospel. In Romans 1 Paul is writing to a primarily Jewish audience (seen in his references to the Gentiles as they and them) and addresses the cause of the Gentiles ethnic impurity which is idolatry. Romans 1 is a story about the origin and consequences of idolatry.
In committing idolatry the Gentile people had dishonored God and in response God turns them over to dishonor themselves. The people actively chose to engage in one sin, that being idolatry, but from that point on it was God who gave them over to other sins as a penalty for the original great offense. Before jumping into the eye of the storm (verses 26-27) take a minute to read verses 21 through 31 as I’ve provided here so you can more clearly see the pattern included in the text.
The Sin: For although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles. (verses 21-23)
The Penalty: Therefore (on account of) God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the dishonoring of their bodies with one another. (verse 24)
The Sin: because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen. (verse 25)
The Penalty: For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. (verses 26-27)
The Sin: And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God…(verse 28a)
The Penalty: God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. (verses 28b-31)
Returning again to verses 26-27, we need to be honest enough to say we don’t know exactly what Paul meant or what Paul might have thought concerning our current day understanding of homosexuality. We know however that Paul was a Jew and that the emphasis on purity in Leviticus were part of Paul’s thinking, as was the Greco-Roman world view in which he lived. Paul’s understanding about sexuality didn’t stand outside of all that but was greatly shaped by all that surrounded him. It seems more than evident that in verses 26-27 Paul has a negative view of homoeroticism and while we can’t know with any precision what Paul meant, we can make several general assumptions:
- Unnatural (para physin) is better understood as that which is out of the ordinary or beyond the ordinary rather than as perversion.
- Sex was for the purpose of procreation and had to include a dominant partner (male) and a passive partner (female). Anything that didn’t meet that normative form was para physin.
- One of the men in a same-sex encounter would dishonor himself by assuming the role of the passive partner and lowering his status to that of a woman. The other man brought dishonor on himself by allowing his kinsman to assume the role of the passive partner.
- Paul, as his contemporaries, saw all passions as uncontrolled and negative. As a result passion was always dishonorable and would obviously result in being consumed by it. The passion that a husband might have for his wife would be seen as equally negative. Paul’s not so much interested in condemning homo-erotic behavior but uncontrolled passions and lack of moderation.
- In the ancient world there was no understanding of a homosexual orientation or a heterosexual orientation for that matter. Paul saw idolatry as the cause of same-sex eroticism rather than a person’s sexual orientation or even as a human choice. It was a penalty exacted by God on the idolatrous Gentiles.
- Unnatural relations for women could refer to any sexual activity where procreation wasn’t a possibility. This could include sex during menstruation, anal sex or homoeroticism. Unnatural relationship for women could also refer to any sexual activity that was beyond the ordinary. Because women were expected in every sexual encounter to be the passive partner it would be against nature for a woman to be the aggressor in a heterosexual encounter or to take the dominant role in sex with another woman.
IN CONCLUSION
There are those who use this chapter to condemn homosexuality but in doing so they’re choosing to emphasize wrongly one portion of a progressive descent into sin by a particular people whose original sin was idolatry. Remember that everything that follows their adulterous practices are a direct result of God giving them up to behaviors that would cause them to dishonor themselves. Their deliberate choice was to practice idolatry but the rest was punishment imposed on them by God.
I would propose that this passage does not speak of gay men and lesbians within our culture but to the Gentile idolaters located in Rome. If anyone uses this passage as a blanket condemnation of homosexuality within our current world, believing that Paul is addressing the universal fall of humanity and homosexuality in particular then they must accept the full argument, which would include the following:
- There was a time when the entire world was monothestistic and one set moment in time when polythesim and idolatry came into the world.
- That up until that one moment there was no such thing as homo-erotic attraction or same-sex sexual relations.
- That there was no homosexual activity or attraction among the Jewish people since the Jews were set outside of those to whom Paul was speaking of in Romans 1.
- That were there to be no idolatry in the world, all homosexuality would disappear since idolatry is the cause and homosexuality a consequence.
- Everyone who is gay or lesbian is that way because God made them to be homosexual because of the sin of idolatry. Homosexuality at this point ceases to be either a sexual orientation OR a choice.
- Everyone who is gay and lesbian is without faith and hates God, including those who proclaim Jesus as their Savior, whether they are practicing homosexuals or living as celibates within the church community.
For those of you who are gay and lesbian and continue to struggle with this passage I’d encourage you to consider these three points explicitly stated in Romans One and ask yourself some questions to see if Paul is referring to you in this writing.
- Did you practice idolatry prior to your first awareness of your homosexuality?
- Do you remember a fixed moment in time when you felt your heterosexuality (an exclusive attraction to the opposite sex) was replaced with homosexuality (an exclusive attraction to the same sex)?
- Are you filled with hate for God? Do you manifest the following in your life: wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice, envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, gossip, slanderer, insolent, haughty and boastfulness? Are you an inventor of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless and ruthless?
- Would you describe your relationship with the person you love as centered solely in uncontrolled passions and lust?
For this passage to be speaking of all gays and lesbians and more specifically of you, you have to be able to answer in the affirmative to every question. If you answer no to any or all of them then perhaps it’s time to let go of this passage as being what stands between reconciling your faith and sexuality. While there’s a clearly negative word here regarding homoeroticism, it’s exclusively a punishment of God for idolaters in Paul’s understanding and so remains an empty closet for those of us today who are gay and lesbian and continue to worship God and God alone.
[If you're interested in a more in-depth and long-winded response to Romans 1, you're invited to read my original writing on Romans 1. Fully-leaded coffee is recommended.]
Posted in The Bible and Homosexuality
Sweet Hope Cookies
March 14th, 2008 at 5:28 am
I do not remember the verse of the top of my head but Paul, later in Romans, describes God as being unnatural and the the same word for unnatural. So if unnatural relations here is characterized as being “bad” or “sin” why not there?.
March 14th, 2008 at 10:34 pm
Jeremy –> I think you’re referring to Romans 11:24 that indeed say that God acts unnaturally (contrary to nature – para physin). In Paul’s use of para physin in these passages as in others, Paul’s not making a moral or sin judgment but saying that the thing or act being referred to is peculiar or not what you would normally expect.
June 21st, 2008 at 9:03 am
Anita: A huge thank you to you this morning… for the comfort and quiet assurance your writing has brought into the ongoing intermittent storms of my life! Thank God for you! May He strengthen and bless you, may He fill you with His wisdom as you continue to share the unpopular truths of how His word is misused here in these pages (even finding that others attack you because of it). I have come so far from how my ex-husband’s judgments and proclamations used to level me! And in large measure it is because God led me to you years ago when I dared to hope enough to “Google”… “Christian lesbian.”
Sincerely…
June 21st, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Wendy–> Your recent post on Can I Be Gay and Still Be Christian” rocks solid. And yes, you’ve come along way and your journey is a beautiful witness to what God has been doing in your life. Amazing. I’m equally blessed to have you here among us!
June 21st, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Wendy, I too must add that your post was awe inspiring. Thank you for putting it out there because I needed to hear what you said.
June 21st, 2008 at 4:22 pm
How do you explain Sodom and Gomorrah?
June 21st, 2008 at 9:15 pm
Ric –> Under the tab on “The Bible and Homosexuality” I’ve written the following:
For more please read the essay on Sodom found here.
October 15th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
I’m definitely struggling with all of this. I’ve seen a lot how people misuse or misinterpret the Bible, but that only makes me more weary as I read your posts. A lot of it seems to make sense, but I can’t help but ask the question -what if she is wrong just like others have been?
For the record, I’m 16, and I have been struggling with gay lust, and I’m not sure what to think about homosexuality. I know that God will love me no matter what, but I also know that he is sanctifying me, and making me more holy…something I could not do on my own. I want to know what he wants me to do. And it hurts that I can’t find it.
It also hurts that I have no one to talk to about it -out of fear of rejection, I can’t seem to find courage to tell anyone the WHOLE truth.
And in the essay above, you ask:
“For those of you who are gay and lesbian and continue to struggle with this passage I’d encourage you to consider these three points explicitly stated in Romans One and ask yourself some questions to see if Paul is referring to you in this writing.”
* Did you practice idolatry prior to your first awareness of your homosexuality?
Answer: I was in fourth grade when I stumbled on a porn picture on the internet. It was of a woman and I was attracted to it -I put my lust before God and dove headfirst into the world of internet porn. Idolatry? Yes. Aren’t we all guilty putting things before God?
* Do you remember a fixed moment in time when you felt your heterosexuality (an exclusive attraction to the opposite sex) was replaced with homosexuality (an exclusive attraction to the same sex)?
Answer: Not a fixed moment in time, but in some way I can’t remember (when, how, or why) I transitioned from straight porn to gay porn
* Are you filled with hate for God? Do you manifest the following in your life: wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice, envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, gossip, slanderer, insolent, haughty and boastfulness? Are you an inventor of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless and ruthless?
Answer: My nature follows all those things, yes. By the grace of God I’m being rescued from it -but I lived much of my life in a cycle of Love God…ignore him while I do what I want -usually pron….Love God again….porn…etc. And in the times that I was immersed in porn, all godliness slowly drained from me and those traits listed above DID manifest in my life. Especially deceit.
* Would you describe your relationship with the person you love as centered solely in uncontrolled passions and lust?
Answer: This is actually what drove me to google search “gay Christian”
In my Bible study, I’ve already told them the testimony of how God delivered me from pornography, but I haven’t told them it was primarily Gay porn. And though I am no longer controlled by the porn, the effects are still with me. I still lust after other boys late at night when I’m all alone in my bed. And in this Bible study, I’m in love with a boy. Yes. I would say that it is based solely in uncontrolled passions and lust.
All in all, I feel that the grip of sin brought on my homosexuality -and the lack of an older male figure in my life to guide me. All this has torn me apart, and refuses to leave. I’ve prayed all these years over this, and I really don’t know what to do except wait for God to show me the way.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
Everest –> Wow Bro. Thank you for the honesty and sincerity of your comments and your journey to do what is right before the eyes of God. Your commitment to being faithful is something that many adults three times your age are lacking and it’s humbling to see it in a young man such as yourself.
Everest, I’m really sorry you’re in a situation where you feel like you can’t open up your life completely with another person. That’s got to be hard and something I understand well from a difficult time in my own life. There really are people there Everest who would listen to you without judgment and accompany you on your faith walk, wherever it leads. Sometimes it just takes time to uncover who they are and so my prayer today is that you’ll find a connection with someone near you who you can trust to hold your story in confidence and offer you support.
I so appreciate you sharing the piece on pornography. To be completely truthful Everest, it’s not a topic I can address well with you because I don’t have any personal experience with it. It just never was something that pulled me however I know very well from the stories of others, both gay and straight, that porn has a powerful pull and that for some it takes the form of an addiction that can’t be broken easily. That you were in fourth grade when you were first exposed to it is quite disturbing and yet in these days of the internet I would imagine that’s more the rule than the exception for kids with access. For what it’s worth Everest, when I read the part of your story you shared here (and I have several times now) the issue seems to be less about your sexual orientation and attractions, than the role pornography has played in your life. That you’ve been delivered from it is a powerful testimony and yet I know from other testimonies, primarily from people in conservative Christian settings, the process of healing from its effects takes longer than the deliverance itself which is something your own words confirm. While you weren’t able to open up about it being gay porn, it’s still good that you found a group where you were able to share a piece of that with and hopefully their ongoing support will continue to aid you in putting the effects of the pornography behind you.
Everest, I’m a stranger to you so I wouldn’t dare think I could advise you one way or the other on your situation nor do I have any judgments toward the story you shared apart from admiring you for your commitment and integrity in all this. Neither can I talk you out of believing that porn brought on your homosexual attractions. All I can do is share with you is that there are countless other gay and lesbian Christians who never were exposed to porn, whose orientation wasn’t centered in sexual lust but in a natural emotional and physical attraction to those of the same gender. I say natural because I know many gay men personally who have told me they knew they were gay when they were as young as six or seven. They’d never seen pornography but when they were playing with their friends, they knew they felt something for the other boys or girls that was different. As they got older they came to realize that those feelings were the same as their male friends had for girls. Now, I don’t relate to that personally Everest because at six and seven I was too busy thinking about my Easy Bake Oven and Saturday morning cartoons to think about who I had feelings for.
I guess I’m saying alot here without saying much of anything that probably helps you Everest. Most of all I just want you to know that what you shared was heard completely and I thank you for taking this first step at sharing this part that you’ve kept mostly to yourself. Of everything I’ve said the one thing I would hope you could most hear is this, YES, God does love you no matter what and I hope you can trust that God knows best for your life Everest and in knowing that, let go of who you think you should be and seek for who God would have you to be, considering that you might not ultimately know best what the end result is or how your journey will look to get there.
Blessings to you, Anita
February 24th, 2009 at 10:54 am
First of all, let me say thanks for the in-depth look at these “troubling” verses from scripture. In particular, I thought your comments on Genesis 1 and 2 (here) (Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve) and your look at Sodom and Gomorrah here) were great.
I have a few comments/questions concerning your take on Romans 1 here, however.
(1)
You write that Paul first states the sin and then gives the penalty. As evidence (and I’m paraphrasing a lot) you show how the passage can be divided into sin (verses 21-23, not honoring God), penalty (verse 24, given over to sinful desires and sexual impurity), sin (verse 25, worshiped creature not creator), penalty (verses 26-27, given over to “dishonorable passions” and homosexuality), sin (verse 28a, didn’t acknowledge God), and penalty (verses 28b-31, given up to a base mind and all sorts of bad behavior).
My question is this: if God (and you) label the above as *penalties* for improper conduct, how could they be good? Normally a penalty is something given to someone that is bad for them except as a teacher to show them what *not* to do. (I.e. I throw a fit before dinner, so my parents give me a five-minute time out. My parents mean for me to understand the time out as a bad thing or they wouldn’t have given it as a penalty. In order for the time out to be considered good, I would have to receive instructions at another time from my parents to go take time alone, and those instructions would have to be given to me *not* by way of a penalty for bad behavior. If all I have is the time out as a penalty, I view it as something bad or, at the very least, less than ideal.)
Speaking plainly, if homosexual behavior is a penalty for sin, how can you say that it’s *not* less than God’s ideal and that it’s okay? A penalty is, by definition, a bad consequence to bad behavior.
(2)
In your article, you state a common misunderstanding of Paul that is not consistent with his writings (but one that most people attribute to him by way of classical Greek thought). You wrote, “Paul, as his contemporaries, saw all passions as uncontrolled and negative.” That is a claim not supported by the writings of Paul or his contemporary Christian workers. For proof, I offer the following:
1 Timothy 3:1 – “It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.” The word for “desires” is the Greek epithumeo which is also the word Jesus uses to describe lusting after a woman (Matthew 5:27-28). According to Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon (available at http://www.perseus.tufts.edu), this word meant “to long for, covet, or desire.” Sounds like passion to me. And Paul seems to okay it…
1 Peter 1:12 – “It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven–things into which angels long to look.” This calls the gospel a thing so awesome that angels long to look into it. The word for “long” there? You guessed it, epithumeo again. Apparently, angels have passions, and it’s okay…
Matthew 13:16-17 – “For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.” The word for “desired” is epithumeo once again. Jesus himself says that righteous men had passion for his words. Passion bad? Not according to Jesus.
Philippians 1:23 – “But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better…” Here, Paul speaks of his great desire to be with Jesus by using epithumia, the noun form of the previous Greek verb. This is the same exact word that shows up in Romans 1:24, where you correctly interpret Paul’s usage as “passion” with all its negative connotations. But here in Philippians, is it negative? Passion to be with Jesus? If we look at the context, we see an even clearer indication that epithumia passion is not bad but it’s what keeps Paul going forward through tough times.
Now, it is true that epithumia passion appears more commonly in a negative light in the New Testament (see Eph. 2:1-3, Col 3:5-7, 1 Ptr. 4:1-2, 2 Tim. 2:22 for examples), but to say that passion was considered wrong by Paul is incorrect. He considered *certain* passions wrong but not all.
Passions were considered wrong by many classical Greek thinkers, but not by Paul or his contemporary Christian writers, many of whom were not raised by classical Greek thought but by the stories of Judaism, whose God himself was passionate (Psalm 132:13) for Jerusalem, whose people were called to be passionate for him (Isaiah 26:9), and whose very name and nature is Jealous (Exodus 34:14).
I don’t mean to “blow you out of the water,” but this is a key issue in understanding Paul and early Christianity, and also in understanding the passion that ought to be a part of our own faith.
February 24th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
Ben–> Hi and thanks for stopping by. I appreciate your comments and the thought you put into them so please don’t take my rather simplistic and concise response to them as minimizing the value of your questions. I’m just in the middle of trying to get another couple posts up and am needing to do that whole time management/priority thing.
If it is a penalty it is less than God’s ideal. I wouldn’t disagree with that statement Ben. However if I accept that Paul was referring to a universal concept of homosexuality, both as homo-eroticism was understood in antiquity and as we understand homosexuality today (divergent concepts to say the least) then I must also accept that every gay person, prior to “being gay” was first practicing the sin of idolatry as Paul explicitly states. I don’t know who would be willing to argue in favor of that position Ben. That’s one of many reasons why many, myself included, do not see Romans 1 as addressing homosexuality but instead refers to something more specific that was occurring among the Gentiles that was so repugnant to the Jews that it increased the impact of Paul’s greater intention for Romans 1 which were his opening words of Romans 2.
Then let me clarify while offering the disclaimer that a conversation on the Greek understanding of passions is part of a more in-depth and fascinating conversation. Any bodily or sensual passions were viewed by Paul (and his contemporaries) as undesirable so much so that for a man to avoid burning with passion Paul recommended that man marry even though marriage wasn’t seen as the ideal state by Paul. That Paul refers to passion for God and for righteousness as a positive, yes. Absolutely. I stand corrected in not differentiating between Paul’s varying view on physical passion versus spiritual passionand thank you for giving me the chance to clarify my thoughts. I wrote only with thought to the quality of passion in the context as Paul referred to in Romans 1.
I would question your closing statement that we should share the very same view of passion as Paul. I don’t believe sexual passion necessitates uncontrolled and unrestrained living neither would I share the same views of Paul and his contemporaries on the biological impact of such passions. I would hope that within our context as people of faith we’re coming to a more holistic view rather than the dualistic understanding of antiquity. It’s not about putting down our flesh (body, sexuality, sensuality) in favor of the realm of the spirit but rather submitting all that we are to God as the One who created us in our wholeness to worship God; body, soul, spirit, mind…
Thanks again for sharing your perspective Ben and no, you didn’t blow me out of the water
February 25th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Wow! Thanks for the quick response. That was awesome.
My only comment is concerning the following statement: “However if I accept that Paul was referring to a universal concept of homosexuality, both as homo-eroticism was understood in antiquity and as we understand homosexuality today (divergent concepts to say the least) then I must also accept that every gay person, prior to ‘being gay’ was first practicing the sin of idolatry as Paul explicitly states. I don’t know who would be willing to argue in favor of that position Ben.”
I guess I’m mostly curious why you don’t think that’s a viable stand to take.
February 25th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
Ben–> The reason I don’t find it a plausible position Ben is because of my own life and the lives of countless Christian gay, lesbian, and bisexual people I’ve known over the years. I know more than anyone how I lived my life and where my priorities and commitments were prior to coming out and I know and trust what others have told me in the witness of their lives; people who never worshiped anyone or anything before God and were living lives as holy and as human as the straight man or woman seated next to them in the pew. Are there those opposed to homosexuality who would say in response, “Well, it would seem the idolatry of the gay man or lesbian was they put their sexuality before God,” and when people choose that path, there’s little that can be said since they’ve chosen to dismiss the witness and word of another believer to hold onto a position that’s the only one they find acceptable. To take that position Ben seems to be to make the great leap into another human thinking they have access into the deepest place of every gay and lesbian heart and can judge each individual’s personal relationship and commitment to God. Ben, we get to each hold our own understanding of this passage or any other but certainly my hope in the end would be that whatever the difference, our commonality can remain bound up in Christ. Tip of the hat to you!
February 26th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
Thanks. I certainly can’t say I know where everyone’s heart is at, but I do know that I had committed idolatry before starting to follow Jesus. It’s been my understanding of the Bible (and of my limited discussions with other people) that every person who ever lived (except for Jesus) has done so as well. It’s a sad but true part of our humanity; we have a habit of putting things before God. For example, there have been times when I knew Jesus was asking me to confess to a friend about an issue I was dealing with. I chose instead to keep quiet. I put my own desire for a good reputation, my own pride, before Jesus. That’s idolatry.
I wonder if our normal view of what it means to commit idolatry is at all close to the real biblical view. In the ancient near east, it was a regular practice to build a statue in honor of a god, as a way of saying “Thanks.” Most scholars hold that the worshiper never thought of the statue as *being* a god, just as representing that God. And yet when Aaron made a golden calf (a symbol of strength, health, and vitality), God was filled with horror and jealousy (Exodus 32). Turns out his view of idolatry was starkly in contrast to the view held by his people. That all makes me question whether our view today is actually *God’s* view. With the limited understanding I have now, I have begun to see that what I once thought of as idolatry (bowing down to a statue) is just the tip of the iceberg. Actual idolatry is much more akin to anything that distracts us from obedience to God. In that case, I think there are a whole lot of idolaters out there. I have been one (just a few days ago, sadly).
Thanks again for taking my questions seriously. You’re helping me to think things through, and I’m really grateful for you taking the time to respond.
February 26th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Ben–> When I said “some people” I wasn’t referring to you. I appreciate the conversation you’ve been willing to thoughtfully and respectfully engage in. I think I primarily agree with you in regards to idolatry. In Romans 1, I do believe Paul was referring to idols constructed to represent pagan gods rather than idols of the heart. This would seem in keeping with the context and his intention in offering up the “deplorable” condition of the Gentiles and then summing it all up by reminding his Jewish readers that “so were some of you.” While it would be far and few between in our culture who actually worship physical idols representing other gods, anything we give all our time and attention to and that has our devotion, supplants God’s place as God in our life. Yes, I think we all have temptations and moments in our lives when we struggle with priorities and where God’s place in our heart, whether unintentionally or not shifts, however as you said, that’s part of the human condition and were that the idolatry Paul meant then it would seem to me that everyone would be inclined toward homosexuality if that’s the penalty for that particular sin. Anyway, thanks again for your questions and reflections. I appreciated them as well.
February 27th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
I do find it amazing that what I hear so many times over and over (in different settings) is Paul Paul Paul. It seems to me that so many people put Paul in the position of God. Paul was not God. Paul was human. Completely. Paul was a product of his culture and his times, and thus, just as anyone else, he had his own understandings and prejudices. Just because Paul saw something – events, behaviors, etc. – one way and commented on what he saw to a particular group of people at a particular time, he was STILL coming to his conclusions through his own filters.
Paul thought that God “gave people up” to dishonorable behaviors & passions because of their idolatry, but perhaps this was simply Paul’s misunderstanding of another culture whose certain behaviors were not in line with Paul’s beliefs. I am not questioning Paul’s sincerity, but I am questioning the weight some Christians put on Paul’s writings – picking and choosing what to take “literally” – while neglecting centuries of science and discovery. Science is showing more and more that a homosexual orientation, while not the majority orientation, is healthy and natural for those who have been given that particular orientation. To ignore science, knowledge and understanding in favor of not challenging our culturally long-held views, implies we know all about the natural and supernatural worlds, and therefore, know all about, and as much as, God. I don’t think anyone of us humans can say that.
I believe God is way, way bigger than any of us can fathom, yet God is also close to us in our hearts. I also believe God never EVER “gives us up.”
February 27th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Laura–> You will never get an argument with me on anything you just said. Paul’s understanding of human sexuality among a whole range of other issues was limited and bound to the ancient understanding (and misunderstanding) of those issues. Paul was simply writing to a particular people at a particular time within a particular context, and no one more than Paul would have been surprised to discover his letters being applied universally centuries later. The problem is that none of this is acceptable to those who view the Bible as the inerrant Word of God, the result of which is that anything held within the sacred text is therefore automatically infallible. This creates a frustrating conversation to attempt to have when trying to get folks to engage in a number of issues that come up in Paul’s writing or writings that were attributed to him which no longer hold up with what we now know, i.e. the ancient understanding of same-sex eroticism compared to our current understanding of human sexuality, sexual orientation and the lives of millions of gay men and lesbians.
February 27th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Anita -> Thanks for your response. I completely agree with what you wrote, and what is indeed so frustrating is that those who view the Bible as inerrant and infallible, are applying God-like attributes to the writers and compilers of the group of writings bound together in this book we call “Bible.” Were all these authors and “choosers” omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and human too? No. Yet, many Christians put these long-ago people in the place of God by saying the book is the “literal word of God.”
There are others (a large chunk in my family-of-origin for example) who believe God “spoke” to all the authors telling them exactly what to write. Taking this fork proves problematic too, when the Book actually contradicts itself a number of times, and also contradicts the discoveries, understandings and learning each generation gains, thus forcing folks to choose what is “literal” to them at a given time in history.
What some people fail to see is that these beliefs either make People=God or the Bible=God, which, boiled down to brass tacks, = idolatry.