There are others (a large chunk in my family-of-origin for example) who believe God “spoke” to all the authors telling them exactly what to write. Taking this fork proves problematic too, when the Book actually contradicts itself a number of times, and also contradicts the discoveries, understandings and learning each generation gains, thus forcing folks to choose what is “literal” to them at a given time in history.

What some people fail to see is that these beliefs either make People=God or the Bible=God, which, boiled down to brass tacks, = idolatry.

Paul thought that God “gave people up” to dishonorable behaviors & passions because of their idolatry, but perhaps this was simply Paul’s misunderstanding of another culture whose certain behaviors were not in line with Paul’s beliefs. I am not questioning Paul’s sincerity, but I am questioning the weight some Christians put on Paul’s writings – picking and choosing what to take “literally” – while neglecting centuries of science and discovery. Science is showing more and more that a homosexual orientation, while not the majority orientation, is healthy and natural for those who have been given that particular orientation. To ignore science, knowledge and understanding in favor of not challenging our culturally long-held views, implies we know all about the natural and supernatural worlds, and therefore, know all about, and as much as, God. I don’t think anyone of us humans can say that.

I believe God is way, way bigger than any of us can fathom, yet God is also close to us in our hearts. I also believe God never EVER “gives us up.”

I wonder if our normal view of what it means to commit idolatry is at all close to the real biblical view. In the ancient near east, it was a regular practice to build a statue in honor of a god, as a way of saying “Thanks.” Most scholars hold that the worshiper never thought of the statue as *being* a god, just as representing that God. And yet when Aaron made a golden calf (a symbol of strength, health, and vitality), God was filled with horror and jealousy (Exodus 32). Turns out his view of idolatry was starkly in contrast to the view held by his people. That all makes me question whether our view today is actually *God’s* view. With the limited understanding I have now, I have begun to see that what I once thought of as idolatry (bowing down to a statue) is just the tip of the iceberg. Actual idolatry is much more akin to anything that distracts us from obedience to God. In that case, I think there are a whole lot of idolaters out there. I have been one (just a few days ago, sadly).

Thanks again for taking my questions seriously. You’re helping me to think things through, and I’m really grateful for you taking the time to respond.

My only comment is concerning the following statement: “However if I accept that Paul was referring to a universal concept of homosexuality, both as homo-eroticism was understood in antiquity and as we understand homosexuality today (divergent concepts to say the least) then I must also accept that every gay person, prior to ‘being gay’ was first practicing the sin of idolatry as Paul explicitly states. I don’t know who would be willing to argue in favor of that position Ben.”

I guess I’m mostly curious why you don’t think that’s a viable stand to take.

Speaking plainly, if homosexual behavior is a penalty for sin, how can you say that it’s *not* less than God’s ideal and that it’s okay? A penalty is, by definition, a bad consequence to bad behavior.

If it is a penalty it is less than God’s ideal. I wouldn’t disagree with that statement Ben. However if I accept that Paul was referring to a universal concept of homosexuality, both as homo-eroticism was understood in antiquity and as we understand homosexuality today (divergent concepts to say the least) then I must also accept that every gay person, prior to “being gay” was first practicing the sin of idolatry as Paul explicitly states. I don’t know who would be willing to argue in favor of that position Ben. That’s one of many reasons why many, myself included, do not see Romans 1 as addressing homosexuality but instead refers to something more specific that was occurring among the Gentiles that was so repugnant to the Jews that it increased the impact of Paul’s greater intention for Romans 1 which were his opening words of Romans 2.

In your article, you state a common misunderstanding of Paul that is not consistent with his writings (but one that most people attribute to him by way of classical Greek thought). You wrote, “Paul, as his contemporaries, saw all passions as uncontrolled and negative.” That is a claim not supported by the writings of Paul or his contemporary Christian workers.

Then let me clarify while offering the disclaimer that a conversation on the Greek understanding of passions is part of a more in-depth and fascinating conversation. Any bodily or sensual passions were viewed by Paul (and his contemporaries) as undesirable so much so that for a man to avoid burning with passion Paul recommended that man marry even though marriage wasn’t seen as the ideal state by Paul. That Paul refers to passion for God and for righteousness as a positive, yes. Absolutely. I stand corrected in not differentiating between Paul’s varying view on physical passion versus spiritual passionand thank you for giving me the chance to clarify my thoughts. I wrote only with thought to the quality of passion in the context as Paul referred to in Romans 1.

I would question your closing statement that we should share the very same view of passion as Paul. I don’t believe sexual passion necessitates uncontrolled and unrestrained living neither would I share the same views of Paul and his contemporaries on the biological impact of such passions. I would hope that within our context as people of faith we’re coming to a more holistic view rather than the dualistic understanding of antiquity. It’s not about putting down our flesh (body, sexuality, sensuality) in favor of the realm of the spirit but rather submitting all that we are to God as the One who created us in our wholeness to worship God; body, soul, spirit, mind…

Thanks again for sharing your perspective Ben and no, you didn’t blow me out of the water

I have a few comments/questions concerning your take on Romans 1 here, however.

(1)
You write that Paul first states the sin and then gives the penalty. As evidence (and I’m paraphrasing a lot) you show how the passage can be divided into sin (verses 21-23, not honoring God), penalty (verse 24, given over to sinful desires and sexual impurity), sin (verse 25, worshiped creature not creator), penalty (verses 26-27, given over to “dishonorable passions” and homosexuality), sin (verse 28a, didn’t acknowledge God), and penalty (verses 28b-31, given up to a base mind and all sorts of bad behavior).

My question is this: if God (and you) label the above as *penalties* for improper conduct, how could they be good? Normally a penalty is something given to someone that is bad for them except as a teacher to show them what *not* to do. (I.e. I throw a fit before dinner, so my parents give me a five-minute time out. My parents mean for me to understand the time out as a bad thing or they wouldn’t have given it as a penalty. In order for the time out to be considered good, I would have to receive instructions at another time from my parents to go take time alone, and those instructions would have to be given to me *not* by way of a penalty for bad behavior. If all I have is the time out as a penalty, I view it as something bad or, at the very least, less than ideal.)

Speaking plainly, if homosexual behavior is a penalty for sin, how can you say that it’s *not* less than God’s ideal and that it’s okay? A penalty is, by definition, a bad consequence to bad behavior.

(2)
In your article, you state a common misunderstanding of Paul that is not consistent with his writings (but one that most people attribute to him by way of classical Greek thought). You wrote, “Paul, as his contemporaries, saw all passions as uncontrolled and negative.” That is a claim not supported by the writings of Paul or his contemporary Christian workers. For proof, I offer the following:

1 Timothy 3:1 – “It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.” The word for “desires” is the Greek epithumeo which is also the word Jesus uses to describe lusting after a woman (Matthew 5:27-28). According to Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon (available at http://www.perseus.tufts.edu), this word meant “to long for, covet, or desire.” Sounds like passion to me. And Paul seems to okay it…

1 Peter 1:12 – “It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven–things into which angels long to look.” This calls the gospel a thing so awesome that angels long to look into it. The word for “long” there? You guessed it, epithumeo again. Apparently, angels have passions, and it’s okay…

Matthew 13:16-17 – “For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.” The word for “desired” is epithumeo once again. Jesus himself says that righteous men had passion for his words. Passion bad? Not according to Jesus.

Philippians 1:23 – “But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better…” Here, Paul speaks of his great desire to be with Jesus by using epithumia, the noun form of the previous Greek verb. This is the same exact word that shows up in Romans 1:24, where you correctly interpret Paul’s usage as “passion” with all its negative connotations. But here in Philippians, is it negative? Passion to be with Jesus? If we look at the context, we see an even clearer indication that epithumia passion is not bad but it’s what keeps Paul going forward through tough times.

Now, it is true that epithumia passion appears more commonly in a negative light in the New Testament (see Eph. 2:1-3, Col 3:5-7, 1 Ptr. 4:1-2, 2 Tim. 2:22 for examples), but to say that passion was considered wrong by Paul is incorrect. He considered *certain* passions wrong but not all.

Passions were considered wrong by many classical Greek thinkers, but not by Paul or his contemporary Christian writers, many of whom were not raised by classical Greek thought but by the stories of Judaism, whose God himself was passionate (Psalm 132:13) for Jerusalem, whose people were called to be passionate for him (Isaiah 26:9), and whose very name and nature is Jealous (Exodus 34:14).

I don’t mean to “blow you out of the water,” but this is a key issue in understanding Paul and early Christianity, and also in understanding the passion that ought to be a part of our own faith.

Everest, I’m really sorry you’re in a situation where you feel like you can’t open up your life completely with another person. That’s got to be hard and something I understand well from a difficult time in my own life. There really are people there Everest who would listen to you without judgment and accompany you on your faith walk, wherever it leads. Sometimes it just takes time to uncover who they are and so my prayer today is that you’ll find a connection with someone near you who you can trust to hold your story in confidence and offer you support.

I so appreciate you sharing the piece on pornography. To be completely truthful Everest, it’s not a topic I can address well with you because I don’t have any personal experience with it. It just never was something that pulled me however I know very well from the stories of others, both gay and straight, that porn has a powerful pull and that for some it takes the form of an addiction that can’t be broken easily. That you were in fourth grade when you were first exposed to it is quite disturbing and yet in these days of the internet I would imagine that’s more the rule than the exception for kids with access. For what it’s worth Everest, when I read the part of your story you shared here (and I have several times now) the issue seems to be less about your sexual orientation and attractions, than the role pornography has played in your life. That you’ve been delivered from it is a powerful testimony and yet I know from other testimonies, primarily from people in conservative Christian settings, the process of healing from its effects takes longer than the deliverance itself which is something your own words confirm. While you weren’t able to open up about it being gay porn, it’s still good that you found a group where you were able to share a piece of that with and hopefully their ongoing support will continue to aid you in putting the effects of the pornography behind you.

Everest, I’m a stranger to you so I wouldn’t dare think I could advise you one way or the other on your situation nor do I have any judgments toward the story you shared apart from admiring you for your commitment and integrity in all this. Neither can I talk you out of believing that porn brought on your homosexual attractions. All I can do is share with you is that there are countless other gay and lesbian Christians who never were exposed to porn, whose orientation wasn’t centered in sexual lust but in a natural emotional and physical attraction to those of the same gender. I say natural because I know many gay men personally who have told me they knew they were gay when they were as young as six or seven. They’d never seen pornography but when they were playing with their friends, they knew they felt something for the other boys or girls that was different. As they got older they came to realize that those feelings were the same as their male friends had for girls. Now, I don’t relate to that personally Everest because at six and seven I was too busy thinking about my Easy Bake Oven and Saturday morning cartoons to think about who I had feelings for.

I guess I’m saying alot here without saying much of anything that probably helps you Everest. Most of all I just want you to know that what you shared was heard completely and I thank you for taking this first step at sharing this part that you’ve kept mostly to yourself. Of everything I’ve said the one thing I would hope you could most hear is this, YES, God does love you no matter what and I hope you can trust that God knows best for your life Everest and in knowing that, let go of who you think you should be and seek for who God would have you to be, considering that you might not ultimately know best what the end result is or how your journey will look to get there.

Blessings to you, Anita