Comments on: To Choose or Not To Choose? http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/to-choose-or-not-to-choose/ An online community sharing our lives and faith within a place of grace Thu, 22 Dec 2011 05:29:07 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: JB http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/to-choose-or-not-to-choose/comment-page-1/#comment-1132 JB Fri, 04 Jul 2008 15:26:49 +0000 http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/?p=208#comment-1132 With myself, I don't think I fully understood my sexuality or about "choices" until I was older. As a child and as a teenager, I always felt drawn towards women. However, I was raised in a very ultra-conservative, religious, closed-minded, sheltered, straight, male-dominated household so I ignored those feelings. I can remember when I was about 13 or 14 watching a news special, had to be abc, nbc or cbs, as those were the only stations we had. Anyway, the show was about whether or not same sex couples could have kids. This was probably 1976 or 1977. I don't remember the entire premise of the show. I do remember thinking hmmmm interesting, but then my father was there going that is disgusting and an abomination... blah blah blah and turned it off. So instantly in my mind as a young impressionable teen, I put it to the file cabinet in my mind of "gay people are totally disgusting, and an abomination". I never understood... I continued on through my impressionable years wanting a relationship. I am not sure what I was looking for to be quite honest. I think that in my growing up, I never even considered myself as a lesbian, I think simply because it never occurred to me that that was a "choice or part" of who I might be. I wasn't "raised" that way. If that even makes sense. I married a man, very much like my father, their personalities are very much the same. I look back now and know I married him, because all of my college roommates were getting married (I had 5 roommates) and I was scared to death of being alone. I did my best to enjoy my marriage the way a married couple does. It didn't work for me. It became a mundane chore for me. My husband told me time and time again how he thought I was a lesbian. That I would look at women, not men, I didn't even know I was doing it. There was a lot of things that went on. But I wasn't happy. Nor was he happy. When we had been married something like 5 or 6 years, I found out that my husband had been in a gay relationship as a teenager. Not only that but he had had several gay encounters. I was at a loss. I was in a city where we knew no one, had no family around and no money to do anything about it. We ended up staying together, I think because we didn't know what else to do. After being married about 14-15 years, going through the motions and a whole lot more, I met a woman. I instantly felt like oh my finally this is what I am looking for. The glass slipper fits! I felt happy for the first time in my life. But, too, I thought oh my this can't be right, yes the drawer in my head came open again, "you can't be gay" it is an abomination, remember?. I tried and tried to run from my feelings. So now, here we were, my husband at the time, unable to hide his feelings for men. I had turned a blind eye to so much in our marriage. And then there was me, longing to be with this woman opening up feelings that I know I had suppressed for so many years. Okay, now what to do? We both wanted to be with the same sex, but couldn't because it wouldn't be the "right" thing to do. He even told me we should never have met! He even asked me is I would consider having relationships within our marriage. He would have a boyfriend and I would have my girlfriend. And live in the same house! That noone would ever know! I told him flatout NO! It got to the point of where I couldn't stand it anymore and I walked out on him and went to her. I have not gone back. I divorced him. We still talk (still have a kid together), but he is where he wants to be and I know I am too. So for me, was it a choice, no, I really and truly don't think so. I do think that our society, albeit better now than it used to be, sends so many mixed messages. It took alot for me to overcome the upbringing that I had to finally come to terms with the fact that yes, I am a lesbian and that is okay. It took alot of soulsearching as well as hiding from God, to being open with God, to come to where I am today. I do my very best to seek out what God wants for me and who I am through Him. I also think that love has alot to do with our feelings as well. I love the woman I am with, I even told her this morning that I know I love her in such a way that I have never loved anyone else. I never felt that with my ex-husband. Do I consider myself straight turned gay. Do I consider myself Bi.. No. I think I was confused as a young adult. No, I consider myself a child of God, who suppressed my feelings as to who I really am until I was an adult and understood who I am. I think each person must follow their own individual journey and seek out what it is about themselves and find out who they are. I think too that I can't put everyone in the same box, nor put my glass slipper on anyone else, as I know the fit wouldn't be there. With myself, I don’t think I fully understood my sexuality or about “choices” until I was older. As a child and as a teenager, I always felt drawn towards women. However, I was raised in a very ultra-conservative, religious, closed-minded, sheltered, straight, male-dominated household so I ignored those feelings.

I can remember when I was about 13 or 14 watching a news special, had to be abc, nbc or cbs, as those were the only stations we had. Anyway, the show was about whether or not same sex couples could have kids. This was probably 1976 or 1977. I don’t remember the entire premise of the show. I do remember thinking hmmmm interesting, but then my father was there going that is disgusting and an abomination… blah blah blah and turned it off. So instantly in my mind as a young impressionable teen, I put it to the file cabinet in my mind of “gay people are totally disgusting, and an abomination”. I never understood…

I continued on through my impressionable years wanting a relationship. I am not sure what I was looking for to be quite honest. I think that in my growing up, I never even considered myself as a lesbian, I think simply because it never occurred to me that that was a “choice or part” of who I might be. I wasn’t “raised” that way. If that even makes sense.

I married a man, very much like my father, their personalities are very much the same. I look back now and know I married him, because all of my college roommates were getting married (I had 5 roommates) and I was scared to death of being alone. I did my best to enjoy my marriage the way a married couple does. It didn’t work for me. It became a mundane chore for me. My husband told me time and time again how he thought I was a lesbian. That I would look at women, not men, I didn’t even know I was doing it. There was a lot of things that went on. But I wasn’t happy. Nor was he happy. When we had been married something like 5 or 6 years, I found out that my husband had been in a gay relationship as a teenager. Not only that but he had had several gay encounters. I was at a loss. I was in a city where we knew no one, had no family around and no money to do anything about it. We ended up staying together, I think because we didn’t know what else to do.

After being married about 14-15 years, going through the motions and a whole lot more, I met a woman. I instantly felt like oh my finally this is what I am looking for. The glass slipper fits! I felt happy for the first time in my life. But, too, I thought oh my this can’t be right, yes the drawer in my head came open again, “you can’t be gay” it is an abomination, remember?. I tried and tried to run from my feelings.

So now, here we were, my husband at the time, unable to hide his feelings for men. I had turned a blind eye to so much in our marriage. And then there was me, longing to be with this woman opening up feelings that I know I had suppressed for so many years. Okay, now what to do? We both wanted to be with the same sex, but couldn’t because it wouldn’t be the “right” thing to do. He even told me we should never have met! He even asked me is I would consider having relationships within our marriage. He would have a boyfriend and I would have my girlfriend. And live in the same house! That noone would ever know! I told him flatout NO!

It got to the point of where I couldn’t stand it anymore and I walked out on him and went to her. I have not gone back. I divorced him. We still talk (still have a kid together), but he is where he wants to be and I know I am too.

So for me, was it a choice, no, I really and truly don’t think so. I do think that our society, albeit better now than it used to be, sends so many mixed messages. It took alot for me to overcome the upbringing that I had to finally come to terms with the fact that yes, I am a lesbian and that is okay. It took alot of soulsearching as well as hiding from God, to being open with God, to come to where I am today. I do my very best to seek out what God wants for me and who I am through Him. I also think that love has alot to do with our feelings as well. I love the woman I am with, I even told her this morning that I know I love her in such a way that I have never loved anyone else. I never felt that with my ex-husband. Do I consider myself straight turned gay. Do I consider myself Bi.. No. I think I was confused as a young adult. No, I consider myself a child of God, who suppressed my feelings as to who I really am until I was an adult and understood who I am.

I think each person must follow their own individual journey and seek out what it is about themselves and find out who they are. I think too that I can’t put everyone in the same box, nor put my glass slipper on anyone else, as I know the fit wouldn’t be there.

]]> By: Eliz Anderson http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/to-choose-or-not-to-choose/comment-page-1/#comment-1049 Eliz Anderson Thu, 03 Jul 2008 21:07:06 +0000 http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/?p=208#comment-1049 And sadly some people refuse to see our love as love not just sex. I think that is where a lot of well meaning people get hung up. That we LOVE someone or are only capable of truly loving of the same the same gender. That sex is not just an act, but an expression of deeply rooted loving feelings of attachment just the same as it is for heterosexual people. Or at least it should be in my opinion. That intimacy is far more complicated than just 'doing it'. And sadly some people refuse to see our love as love not just sex. I think that is where a lot of well meaning people get hung up. That we LOVE someone or are only capable of truly loving of the same the same gender. That sex is not just an act, but an expression of deeply rooted loving feelings of attachment just the same as it is for heterosexual people. Or at least it should be in my opinion. That intimacy is far more complicated than just ‘doing it’.

]]> By: wvhillcountry http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/to-choose-or-not-to-choose/comment-page-1/#comment-1047 wvhillcountry Thu, 03 Jul 2008 19:54:20 +0000 http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/?p=208#comment-1047 Eliz, A lot of people assume that since I was married to a man that I was straight and then switched sides. I was as gay then as now, the only difference is that I was living the life I was told that I was supposed to live. And yes, the attraction is there long before there is any intimate contact. I knew I was gay long before I admitted it to myself. I have to agree that is not who we love but HOW we love. Eliz, A lot of people assume that since I was married to a man that I was straight and then switched sides. I was as gay then as now, the only difference is that I was living the life I was told that I was supposed to live. And yes, the attraction is there long before there is any intimate contact. I knew I was gay long before I admitted it to myself.

I have to agree that is not who we love but HOW we love.

]]> By: Eliz Anderson http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/to-choose-or-not-to-choose/comment-page-1/#comment-1045 Eliz Anderson Thu, 03 Jul 2008 19:00:34 +0000 http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/?p=208#comment-1045 wvhillcounrty I noticed in your post you said, '...a very good friend that believed that my orientation was a choice that I had made and that someday I would chose to be straight again.' I just wanted to point out that SHE had made the ASSUMPTION that because you (I was too) were married to a man that you HAD BEEN STRAIGHT before. Being married to a man never made me straight! Anymore than if a straight person forced themselves to live as a gay person. I tried to explain this to a friend when she used this logic on me. She said that I should try a gay relationship(ie sex) and see if I was really gay. She figured that since I have never had a gay lover that there was no way for me to KNOW that I am gay. But this is based on her own orientation. She could not understand that just as she knew she was attracted to males before she ever was intimate with one, I know my own orientation. Since heterosexual people are the majority they don't even have to think about why they are heterosexual. And some of them find it strange that we have to think about our orientation. They don't understand the costs we endure. Whether we accept ourselves for who we are or not it comes with a cost. wvhillcounrty I noticed in your post you said, ‘…a very good friend that believed that my orientation was a choice that I had made and that someday I would chose to be straight again.’ I just wanted to point out that SHE had made the ASSUMPTION that because you (I was too) were married to a man that you HAD BEEN STRAIGHT before. Being married to a man never made me straight! Anymore than if a straight person forced themselves to live as a gay person. I tried to explain this to a friend when she used this logic on me. She said that I should try a gay relationship(ie sex) and see if I was really gay. She figured that since I have never had a gay lover that there was no way for me to KNOW that I am gay. But this is based on her own orientation. She could not understand that just as she knew she was attracted to males before she ever was intimate with one, I know my own orientation. Since heterosexual people are the majority they don’t even have to think about why they are heterosexual. And some of them find it strange that we have to think about our orientation. They don’t understand the costs we endure. Whether we accept ourselves for who we are or not it comes with a cost.

]]> By: Eliz Anderson http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/to-choose-or-not-to-choose/comment-page-1/#comment-1044 Eliz Anderson Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:46:49 +0000 http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/?p=208#comment-1044 wvhillcountry no one could say it better. The question really is whether we individually live truthfully who we are in the way God intended for us. To be authentically who we are and live that to God's standards of love. It is not who we love as much as HOW we love and whether or not we actually love. There is a huge difference between love and simply sex alone no matter what your orientation is.The way I see it we are living sinfully if we abuse ourselves by living a lie just as much is if a heterosexual person chose to try to live our lives. wvhillcountry no one could say it better.
The question really is whether we individually live truthfully who we are in the way God intended for us. To be authentically who we are and live that to God’s standards of love. It is not who we love as much as HOW we love and whether or not we actually love. There is a huge difference between love and simply sex alone no matter what your orientation is.The way I see it we are living sinfully if we abuse ourselves by living a lie just as much is if a heterosexual person chose to try to live our lives.

]]> By: joni http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/to-choose-or-not-to-choose/comment-page-1/#comment-1043 joni Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:35:21 +0000 http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/?p=208#comment-1043 Yet again Kelli girl, love it!! "So I asked her if being straight was a choice she made and when she said no, I answered neither is my oreintation a choice." 'nough said in my opinion LOL Yet again Kelli girl, love it!!

“So I asked her if being straight was a choice she made and when she said no, I answered neither is my oreintation a choice.”

‘nough said in my opinion LOL

]]> By: wvhillcountry http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/to-choose-or-not-to-choose/comment-page-1/#comment-1042 wvhillcountry Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:18:49 +0000 http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/?p=208#comment-1042 I once had a very good friend that believed that my orientation was a choice that I had made and that someday I would choose to be straight again. (When I met the right man...LOL). So I asked her if she could ever be in a homosexual relationship and she let me know in no uncertain terms that she could not. So I asked her if being straight was a choice she made and when she said no, I answered neither is my oreintation a choice. That being said, I know there are 100% straight, 100% gay and all others who fall somewhere in between. The important thing isn't the orientation or level thereof, but living to be who God created. If God created you straight, then go out and be the best little straight person you can, if God created you gay, the same rules apply. And to me it doesn't matter who a person sleeps with or who they love, just that they act out of love. I once had a very good friend that believed that my orientation was a choice that I had made and that someday I would choose to be straight again. (When I met the right man…LOL). So I asked her if she could ever be in a homosexual relationship and she let me know in no uncertain terms that she could not. So I asked her if being straight was a choice she made and when she said no, I answered neither is my oreintation a choice.

That being said, I know there are 100% straight, 100% gay and all others who fall somewhere in between. The important thing isn’t the orientation or level thereof, but living to be who God created. If God created you straight, then go out and be the best little straight person you can, if God created you gay, the same rules apply. And to me it doesn’t matter who a person sleeps with or who they love, just that they act out of love.

]]> By: Sandy http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/to-choose-or-not-to-choose/comment-page-1/#comment-1039 Sandy Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:30:11 +0000 http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/?p=208#comment-1039 It hasn't felt like a choice to me but it may be for some. For me though, the whole choice/not a choice thing is a red herring. It distracts from the whole discussion of what is moral sexual behavior and the fact that heterosexuals (many of whom are Christian) so rarely live up to that "standard" themselves. You want to talk morality? Fine, but we're going to talk about your choices too. It hasn’t felt like a choice to me but it may be for some. For me though, the whole choice/not a choice thing is a red herring. It distracts from the whole discussion of what is moral sexual behavior and the fact that heterosexuals (many of whom are Christian) so rarely live up to that “standard” themselves. You want to talk morality? Fine, but we’re going to talk about your choices too.

]]> By: Wendy http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/to-choose-or-not-to-choose/comment-page-1/#comment-978 Wendy Thu, 03 Jul 2008 02:23:15 +0000 http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/?p=208#comment-978 Bon: I can't thank you enough for sharing this story... this perspective... it is so applicable! So sounds like what I go through with my EX husband (of nearly a decade). This part just rang out like a bell: "...'voicing her concern' about me in some area (translate: abuse me with scripture for awhile)"... YES! You nailed it!! Valuable thoughts Bon... that I am tucking in to my pocket to use! It just may work! I handle all son-sharing communication with his wife... so I don't ever really need to get an email from him. Bless you! Bon: I can’t thank you enough for sharing this story… this perspective… it is so applicable! So sounds like what I go through with my EX husband (of nearly a decade). This part just rang out like a bell: “…’voicing her concern’ about me in some area (translate: abuse me with scripture for awhile)”… YES! You nailed it!! Valuable thoughts Bon… that I am tucking in to my pocket to use! It just may work! I handle all son-sharing communication with his wife… so I don’t ever really need to get an email from him. Bless you!

]]> By: Eliz Anderson http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/to-choose-or-not-to-choose/comment-page-1/#comment-975 Eliz Anderson Thu, 03 Jul 2008 02:12:04 +0000 http://www.sisterfriends-together.org/?p=208#comment-975 Anita like you I see the need to be very clear to people that my orientation was not my choice, while respecting that for some people closer to being bi-sexual (a 1 on either side of 0 true bi, on the sexuality scale) choice may be involved. Now I did Choose to marry a man. For me this was very mentally damaging. To force myself to live completely out side of my nature I had to separate parts of my mind. As a result I am missing nearly 15 years of memories and require medication for depression. An elderly person told me that she had wondered through out her life well into her 30s if she was gay. She never felt any attraction or diversion to or from men. She preferred females as friends. However she did marry a man at 37 and had children (which seemed to be the only reason she married). She never seemed to change in needing him in her life or not. (I've known this person for a long time, and all I can guess is since she was able to maintain this heterosexual relationship without damaging her emotional/mental being is that she is much closer to being bi than I am). Another friend confided in me years ago (she has been quite happily married to her high school boyfriend for many years) yet she had a female friend years ago that she was very attracted to. One day they were visiting and she said all she could think about was how it would feel for her friend to embrace her. Since she already was married that was it. Yet even years later she realized that if she had been available it would have been different. It seems to me that both these people are bi and because of the circumstances could have be content in either a straight relationship or a gay one. There is not a one size fits all answer to why anyone can or can not live in either world. Love is complex. People seem to want to try to fit each other into boxes that reflect themselves. I know I could not every be straight no matter how hard I tried or wanted it. But that does not mean that for some people they may be able to either to conform to 'social norms' because they are bi-sexual and have found someone of the opposite gender who they love. I do not believe that anyone who is either predominately gay or predominately heterosexual can change their nature. I have seen people who have chosen to become ex-gay and even marry. Yet from the ones I have seen they it is evident they are still gay. They would even say that although they loved their spouses they live in a constant struggle. No matter how they dress this up they are still who they are by their natural nature. I am saddened by this church sanctioned homophobia that forces some people to endure this self inflicted abuse. As someone who has lived through it I know personally the damage it can do, not only to oneself but the entire family. Anita like you I see the need to be very clear to people that my orientation was not my choice, while respecting that for some people closer to being bi-sexual (a 1 on either side of 0 true bi, on the sexuality scale) choice may be involved. Now I did Choose to marry a man. For me this was very mentally damaging. To force myself to live completely out side of my nature I had to separate parts of my mind. As a result I am missing nearly 15 years of memories and require medication for depression.
An elderly person told me that she had wondered through out her life well into her 30s if she was gay. She never felt any attraction or diversion to or from men. She preferred females as friends. However she did marry a man at 37 and had children (which seemed to be the only reason she married). She never seemed to change in needing him in her life or not. (I’ve known this person for a long time, and all I can guess is since she was able to maintain this heterosexual relationship without damaging her emotional/mental being is that she is much closer to being bi than I am).
Another friend confided in me years ago (she has been quite happily married to her high school boyfriend for many years) yet she had a female friend years ago that she was very attracted to. One day they were visiting and she said all she could think about was how it would feel for her friend to embrace her. Since she already was married that was it. Yet even years later she realized that if she had been available it would have been different. It seems to me that both these people are bi and because of the circumstances could have be content in either a straight relationship or a gay one.
There is not a one size fits all answer to why anyone can or can not live in either world. Love is complex. People seem to want to try to fit each other into boxes that reflect themselves. I know I could not every be straight no matter how hard I tried or wanted it. But that does not mean that for some people they may be able to either to conform to ‘social norms’ because they are bi-sexual and have found someone of the opposite gender who they love. I do not believe that anyone who is either predominately gay or predominately heterosexual can change their nature. I have seen people who have chosen to become ex-gay and even marry. Yet from the ones I have seen they it is evident they are still gay. They would even say that although they loved their spouses they live in a constant struggle. No matter how they dress this up they are still who they are by their natural nature. I am saddened by this church sanctioned homophobia that forces some people to endure this self inflicted abuse. As someone who has lived through it I know personally the damage it can do, not only to oneself but the entire family.

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